Why aren't leading non-alpha characters treated consistently across RTM?
gregmay82 says:
FIRST: I'm still new to RTM and don't know the lingo, so If anybody has a suggestion for a better description of the issue I'm about to describe, tell it to me, and I'll repost this with that description so people will know what the heck I'm talking about . . .
First, my setup. To keep similar tags together, as well as to keep similar lists together, I use a leading non-alpha character (using alpha prefixes looks too cluttered to me). For example, I want to keep all tags that are the names of people grouped together, so I using a leading underscore for all people tags. That way all the people tags stay grouped together in the tag list and sort alphabetically, like this:
_farnsworth-t
_jones-d
_jones-l
_rogers-b
_smith-j
Similarly, I group:
all context tags together with a leading "@" (e.g., @office)
all work project name tags with a leading "+" (e.g., +get-2008-budget)
all personal project name tags with a leading"-" (e.g., -buy-cat-litter)
I do something similar for my lists, including smart lists, i.e., I group them by type using a leading non-alpha character.
(If anyone's curious, the reason I do this is because it makes it much easier for me to find the tag or list that I want when I scroll on my iPhone.)
Now, here is what I am talking about regarding the inconsistent treatment of these leading characters across RTM . . .
1. Why are more non-alpha characters allowed in list names than in tag names?
I can create a list name with any of the following leading characters: !, @, #, $, %, ^, &, *, +, -, _, =, , /, \, ~, and others. (Curiously, the ~ sorts after "t" rather than prior to the alphabet, like the other non-alpha characters.)
However, the only non-alpha characters accepted in a tag name appear to be +, -, @, and _. (Gotta have the @ or risk a revolt by GTDers!) If I try to create a tag with any other leading non-alpha character, it gets filtered out of the name. E.g., if I type "#easy" as a tag, the task gets tagged only with "easy." However, that leading pound sign works just fine in the name of a list.
I've tried every non-alpha character I know of my my keyboard. Does anyone know of any that work in tags besides +,-,@ and _?
2. Why is ordering of non-alpha characters inconsistent?
In tags, they sort in the following order:
+
-
@
_
Thus, all tags prefixed with a "+" appear at the top of the tag list, followed by all tags prefixed by a "-" etc. They sort in the same order on my iPhone.
In LISTS, they sort in the same order as tags on the website but in a different order on the iPhone. Specifically, the lists with a leading + appear at the top of my lists on the website, but the lists with a leading - appear at the top of my lists on the iPhone. I suppose I can get used to this over time, but . . . is there a way to make them consistent? (I may report this as a bug, but perhaps there's a reason it like this?)
First, my setup. To keep similar tags together, as well as to keep similar lists together, I use a leading non-alpha character (using alpha prefixes looks too cluttered to me). For example, I want to keep all tags that are the names of people grouped together, so I using a leading underscore for all people tags. That way all the people tags stay grouped together in the tag list and sort alphabetically, like this:
_farnsworth-t
_jones-d
_jones-l
_rogers-b
_smith-j
Similarly, I group:
all context tags together with a leading "@" (e.g., @office)
all work project name tags with a leading "+" (e.g., +get-2008-budget)
all personal project name tags with a leading"-" (e.g., -buy-cat-litter)
I do something similar for my lists, including smart lists, i.e., I group them by type using a leading non-alpha character.
(If anyone's curious, the reason I do this is because it makes it much easier for me to find the tag or list that I want when I scroll on my iPhone.)
Now, here is what I am talking about regarding the inconsistent treatment of these leading characters across RTM . . .
1. Why are more non-alpha characters allowed in list names than in tag names?
I can create a list name with any of the following leading characters: !, @, #, $, %, ^, &, *, +, -, _, =, , /, \, ~, and others. (Curiously, the ~ sorts after "t" rather than prior to the alphabet, like the other non-alpha characters.)
However, the only non-alpha characters accepted in a tag name appear to be +, -, @, and _. (Gotta have the @ or risk a revolt by GTDers!) If I try to create a tag with any other leading non-alpha character, it gets filtered out of the name. E.g., if I type "#easy" as a tag, the task gets tagged only with "easy." However, that leading pound sign works just fine in the name of a list.
I've tried every non-alpha character I know of my my keyboard. Does anyone know of any that work in tags besides +,-,@ and _?
2. Why is ordering of non-alpha characters inconsistent?
In tags, they sort in the following order:
+
-
@
_
Thus, all tags prefixed with a "+" appear at the top of the tag list, followed by all tags prefixed by a "-" etc. They sort in the same order on my iPhone.
In LISTS, they sort in the same order as tags on the website but in a different order on the iPhone. Specifically, the lists with a leading + appear at the top of my lists on the website, but the lists with a leading - appear at the top of my lists on the iPhone. I suppose I can get used to this over time, but . . . is there a way to make them consistent? (I may report this as a bug, but perhaps there's a reason it like this?)
devon20net says:
Greg - I use special characters the same way you do and noticed the same thing. I don't have an answer other than to say that "." (period) also works in tasks.
I dug up this note I made to myself some time back:
RTM Order:
tags: + - . 123 @ _ abc
lists: ! # $ % ( ) * + , - . / 123 : ; ? @ [ \ ] ^ _ ` abc { | } ~
-Dawn
I dug up this note I made to myself some time back:
RTM Order:
tags: + - . 123 @ _ abc
lists: ! # $ % ( ) * + , - . / 123 : ; ? @ [ \ ] ^ _ ` abc { | } ~
-Dawn
gregmay82 says:
Thank you, Dawn, that list is handy to have. I had not created one for lists, but I had a task title "Tag Order" that was tagged with:
+plus, -hyphen,@at, _underscore, ampersand, apostrophe, asterisk, backquote, backslash, carat, colon, dollar, equals, exclaim, less, more, percent, pound, quote, tilde, vertical
Which also served to remind me which symbols would NOT work, since I kept forgetting which I had tried.
The list order will be handy. I don't know if it would tick off anyone else, but if @ sorted closer to the front, it would sure help GTDers. I suppose we could always adopt + for contexts, but that seems . . . sacriligeous!
+plus, -hyphen,@at, _underscore, ampersand, apostrophe, asterisk, backquote, backslash, carat, colon, dollar, equals, exclaim, less, more, percent, pound, quote, tilde, vertical
Which also served to remind me which symbols would NOT work, since I kept forgetting which I had tried.
The list order will be handy. I don't know if it would tick off anyone else, but if @ sorted closer to the front, it would sure help GTDers. I suppose we could always adopt + for contexts, but that seems . . . sacriligeous!
devon20net says:
@gregmay82 said: I don't know if it would tick off anyone else, but if @ sorted closer to the front, it would sure help GTDers. I suppose we could always adopt + for contexts, but that seems . . . sacriligeous!
No kidding. I'm still hyperventilating from seeing that Smart Add is using @ for location. It's a good thing I don't use location that much. My brain would probably short circuit.
-Dawn
No kidding. I'm still hyperventilating from seeing that Smart Add is using @ for location. It's a good thing I don't use location that much. My brain would probably short circuit.
-Dawn
(closed account) says:
If I'm reading/rereacing both your posts correctly, they are sorting in the same order - there are just less characters available for tags than for lists. I don't use special characters in tags (yet, you've got me thinking about it), but the characters in lists sort in ASCII order, like most computer apps. If you're not familiar with ASCII, you can google for "ASCII map" to see what that is.
I don't know the history of this list, only that it's been around since I first started fooling with computers back in the mid sixties, and is pretty near universal. I'm sure that if you're that curious, you can wiki ASCII and get the full history.
BTW, you didn't menion in your posts that upper and lower case letters are both listed in the ASCII map. Since you can't have upper case in tags, it's irrelevant. But I did test it recently, and List names can have upper and lower case and sort upper case first. There are even a few characters that fall between the upper and lower case alphabetic characters.
HTH
I don't know the history of this list, only that it's been around since I first started fooling with computers back in the mid sixties, and is pretty near universal. I'm sure that if you're that curious, you can wiki ASCII and get the full history.
BTW, you didn't menion in your posts that upper and lower case letters are both listed in the ASCII map. Since you can't have upper case in tags, it's irrelevant. But I did test it recently, and List names can have upper and lower case and sort upper case first. There are even a few characters that fall between the upper and lower case alphabetic characters.
HTH
(closed account) says:
Forgot to mention, the "vertical" is called a "pipe". Don't ask me why.
devon20net says:
@cdhsman, you are reading correctly that I am saying the tags & lists are ordered the same. There are just fewer characters permitting in the tags.
I'm not seeing the same thing you are regarding the sort order of the lists though. Some test lists I created sorted as follows:
#
+
-
123
@
[
^
_
a
A
B
b
C
c
~
Note that the characters #, +, and - sorted before the uppercase alpha characters, not between the uppercase & lowercase as in standard ASCII order. Also upper case alpha characters do not always sort before lowercase (as they do in ASCII order).
At first I thought RTM was not using the standard ASCII order. Now I think it is, but is treating all alpha characters as lower case (though displaying them as entered). That would explain why the special characters appear to be sorting before uppercase alpha, and also why the ordering of upper and lowercase alpha is inconsistent (and seems to be dependent on order of entry rather than an ASCII sort)
I think RTM sees ABC = abc = AbC = aBc, etc. I think the bug is that duplicate list names should not be permitted.
I'm not seeing the same thing you are regarding the sort order of the lists though. Some test lists I created sorted as follows:
#
+
-
123
@
[
^
_
a
A
B
b
C
c
~
Note that the characters #, +, and - sorted before the uppercase alpha characters, not between the uppercase & lowercase as in standard ASCII order. Also upper case alpha characters do not always sort before lowercase (as they do in ASCII order).
At first I thought RTM was not using the standard ASCII order. Now I think it is, but is treating all alpha characters as lower case (though displaying them as entered). That would explain why the special characters appear to be sorting before uppercase alpha, and also why the ordering of upper and lowercase alpha is inconsistent (and seems to be dependent on order of entry rather than an ASCII sort)
I think RTM sees ABC = abc = AbC = aBc, etc. I think the bug is that duplicate list names should not be permitted.
(closed account) says:
Wow! I'm glad you checked these, Devon! I looked at the earlier ones you and others had done, then did a few random checks and it looked like ASCII order. After reading your reply above, I tested every character on the keyboard and came out with the following:
!
" (quotation mark)
#
$
%
&
'(single quote)
(
)
*
+
, (comma)
- (dash)
. (period)
/
123...
: (colon)
; (semicolon)
<
>
?
@
[
\
]
^
_
`(unshifted tilde)
A a B b....
{
|
}
~(tilde)
It's the same as yours, but more complete (and you have the "a" and "A" out of order, I imagine just a typo).
Close to ASCII, but mixing the upper and lower case letters and changing the order of a few others. I'm really curious now as to what, if any, standard system this follows.
Can somone check my order and verify or correct it? Maybe we can get RTM to put this in a sticky or in the blog so everyone has access to it. It certainly seems very misleading that it's so close to ASCII but not quite the same, we need to call attention to it.
If anyone at RTM is following this, can you tell us if this is some standardized order, or one that RTM invented?
Now that I know this, I can use it to determine my tag/list schema, particularly as it relates to my projects. Thanks to Greg who started this thread and everyone who participated.
!
" (quotation mark)
#
$
%
&
'(single quote)
(
)
*
+
, (comma)
- (dash)
. (period)
/
123...
: (colon)
; (semicolon)
<
>
?
@
[
\
]
^
_
`(unshifted tilde)
A a B b....
{
|
}
~(tilde)
It's the same as yours, but more complete (and you have the "a" and "A" out of order, I imagine just a typo).
Close to ASCII, but mixing the upper and lower case letters and changing the order of a few others. I'm really curious now as to what, if any, standard system this follows.
Can somone check my order and verify or correct it? Maybe we can get RTM to put this in a sticky or in the blog so everyone has access to it. It certainly seems very misleading that it's so close to ASCII but not quite the same, we need to call attention to it.
If anyone at RTM is following this, can you tell us if this is some standardized order, or one that RTM invented?
Now that I know this, I can use it to determine my tag/list schema, particularly as it relates to my projects. Thanks to Greg who started this thread and everyone who participated.
(closed account) says:
I forgot to check on the above go-around, the order of alphabetic entries. You're absolutely right, RTM doesn't sort upper and lower case, just enters the sorted alphabetically ignoring upper and lower case, showing them in the order they were entered.
gregmay82 says:
cdhsman,
Their is one discrepancy in the sorting order:
The leading characters sort in the same order whether as a list name or tags on the website. But leading characters in lists sort one way on the website and another on the iPhone. Specifically, the lists with a leading + appear at the top of my lists on the website, but the lists with a leading - appear at the top of my lists on the iPhone. I suppose I can get used to this over time, but . . . is there a way to make them consistent?
Their is one discrepancy in the sorting order:
The leading characters sort in the same order whether as a list name or tags on the website. But leading characters in lists sort one way on the website and another on the iPhone. Specifically, the lists with a leading + appear at the top of my lists on the website, but the lists with a leading - appear at the top of my lists on the iPhone. I suppose I can get used to this over time, but . . . is there a way to make them consistent?