fwiw, you can just browse to rtm in safari on your phone. through safari you can add task, but can't mark one as complete, which is making me consider paying the bucks.

I don't mind paying for the software but $25 per year seems VERY high to me. If you compare to other to do progs. Or am I meaning mean to the lovely RTM crew?

In my opinion, RTM should provide a free version of the iPhone app, but with fewer features than the PRO version. If you look at the reviews in the app store, they're all 5-star except for people that felt tricked into downloading a "free" app that actually costs $25 a year. A fully free version would absolutely silence them, turning the RTM app rating into almost exclusively 5-stars. It would also hold onto those free users that need only a quick reminder service on the go, who would otherwise switch to a different free service. These users potentially will upgrade in the future once RTM becomes indispensable to their workflow and they begin to need more features, making the PRO value proposition much more sensible. For my usage, I saw the $25 fee to use the iPhone app and thought it expensive, but considered it. Once I realized it was $25 /yr, that seemed far too unreasonable for my needs. FWIW, a one-time $5 fee would even need consideration in my case; it would certainly not be a "must-have" app.

You've got the data; investigate which features PRO users take advantage of that free users do not: maybe those are tags, lists, priority ratings, integration with other services, location awareness; or maybe the solution is to cut many features for free users of the iPhone app but direct them to the website for advanced feature usage, where they'll be greeted with some advertising that PRO users don't see. There are a lot of possibilities, but the problem you've got now is free users tearing apart the rating of the app because they expect it for free, which in turn must be causing some potential PRO users to question the investment.

totally misleading at application store for iphone. in looking one clearly thinks this application is free which is exactly why they have it laid out like they do. after loading up and using one then gets message that unless you pay the $ 25.00 you lose. i am reporting to apple, as well as to the attorney general consumer fraud division of the state of md

Hi stevemiles,

I apologise for the confusion; our application (like MobileMe) provides synchronization with our servers, and requires a Pro account with our service. This is a $25/year service.

Apple lists this application in the 'free' category (as it's a free download for use with Pro accounts), which can be confusing. The app's description in the App Store does make it clear that a Pro account is required, stating at the very top:

FREE WITH A REMEMBER THE MILK PRO ACCOUNT

Learn more about Pro accounts at www.rememberthemilk.com/pro

Hope this helps!

It is a rib deal 25 us per year ! I don't have a warm feeling about RTM team at all.

And not clear when you get the 'free' Iphone app!

It is smarter to ask all the users a fair amount for around 5 to 7,5 us p/y instead of iphone (pro) users 25 per year. You will be out of the market as soon there is a good alternative. Not smart RTM team!

Well I've paid the $25 and I'm mostly happy with RTM (apart from a few interface design niggles). I had a good long hard look to find comparable products that work on both iPhone and web, and nothing else came close. So, RTM keep up the good work :-)

(to the guy who's moaning to the "state of md", what on earth has that got to do with it?)

Well IMO it is a fair deal. If you feel mislead by the product then you obviously don´t read before you download apps. It states clearly that it is free to download but requires a pro account to work on the iPhone.
You basically get a demo of the product and 15 days to decide if you want it.

I really like RTM as a whole. I think that they are doing great work and the price is fair. I am finding it really hard to feel sorry for those who feel mislead, since they have paid no money for it, and they could have avoided downloading the app if they had just spent two seconds reading the text about the app, instead of mindlessly downloading apps just because they are free.

The thing is that there's nothing new or misleading about this business model on the part of RTM.... The "Pro" account has been required for many sync options previously, including Appigo's ToDo app (which was a $10 app on top of requiring an RTM Pro account), and of course RTMs own MilkSync solution for Blackberry and Windows Mobile. The iPhone is simply a natural extension of this, in the same way for other developers who have brought their traditional Palm or WinMo apps to the iPhone.

For instance, eReader is a free ebook reader, but you still need to buy the books from eReader.com (to be fair, they've now provided support for your own eBooks, but that's a secondary consideration since the eBook format itself is still somewhat proprietary).

In other words, it's simply a free iPhone client for an existing web-based service. The App Store is full of these types of applications.

IMHO, $25/yr is a bargain for the functionality that RTM offers. The only competing app is ToodleDo, which is a $4 App Store purchase, and although they provide a free web version that works with their app, you don't really get full functionality out of ToodleDo unless you also upgrade to their own "Pro" version.

Other to-do apps that provide any kind of web or desktop sync all cost considerably more. Consider OmniFocus: $20 for the iPhone app, plus $80 for the Mac app.... That's about four years of RTM Pro.

Let's face it, the folks at RTM are not in this out of the goodness of their hearts, and it's nice that they provide a free web-based version *at all* ... People have been spoiled by "free" services like GMail from large and deep-pocketed companies that have other ways of making revenue than charging the end user, but I"d personally rather see RTM stay clean and ad-free, and have some concept of a reliable service level than rely on a free service for my mission-critical data (which my task list most certainly is).

The big plus for RTM on the iPhone is over-the-air ('cloud' as it now seems to be termed!) synching of tasks.

RTM iPhone has pulled me over because of this feature. To get the same over-the-air sync with Omnifocus (that can not be used at all with Windows), it requires the $20 iPhone app, then the $85 Mac app *AND* a subscription to a WebDav or MobileMe account.

Omnifocus does have better management of GTD in my view though. If they included a web/Windows interface I'd probably stick with them. But they don't so I'm with RTM for now. If RTM up their GTD facilities, I'll probably stay with RTM too.

Oh give me a break! People can afford an iPhone and the data plans that go with it, but complain about paying $25/year for a great product? Folks - that's less than 7 cents per day! Is improved productivity and no longer having to worry about writing things down not worth 7 cents per day? The ability for RTM to use your iPhone's GPS system in order to automatically suggest tasks according to your location isn't worth it? I'm flabbergasted. And yet, I'm sure each of us buys one coffee a week somewhere -- more than what it costs for RTM Pro per week.

This is a great product that is not run by a mega-corporation that is making big bucks. And just look at the flexibility and options you have! Use Jott to add tasks by phone. View your tasks in Gmail, or Googel Calander. Use Twitter. ALL FREE anyway.

I'm amazed that people who can afford an iPhone complain about a 7 cent per day cost to get this great service.

This is a fair deal. I agree with amswitzer. If people can afford an iphone with a data plan, then they shouldn't complain!

For a well designed application, it is worth it. Look at the number of other free options you are provided. We should support the RTM team for this amazing tool.

To the RTM team,...guys you are doing an amazing job. Keep it up.

~V

I'm sorry but at 25$/year for a glorified lists it's extremely expensive. It would have to give you enormous productivity boost to justify the cost. Again, for as much as I like RTM, I simply don't see it. At 5-10$ a year it would be much more reasonable, and that for the iPhone app. Web access via iPhone should be free.

There are alternatives like Zenbe Lists (http://lists.zenbe.com) which is completely free. It supports multiple lists and full offline functionality using the free iPhone app. I tried it and it works as advertised. Obviously I like RTM better if I bother to write here. Unfortunately I might be forced to go back to Zenbe if you don't change your pricing policy.

I understand there needs to be a viable revenue stream to support the company, but it should be achieved by broadening the user base instead of "milking" the niche users that absolutely need functionality the RTM offers and are more then happy to pay the premium price for it.

If you can't squeeze out $25 value (for an entire year) with GTD then you're not GTD.

Having said that, now that the iPhone app is out I agree that it would be an excellent "gateway drug" to the native iPhone app. As a Pro user I see no reason to use the web app unless I need to desperately borrow someone else's iPhone/iPod touch to add a task (how desperate is that).

You have a point there. My intention was to use RTM for managing my private tasks, no more than 5-6 tasks a week.

These are usually tasks scheduled well in advance, otherwise I wouldn't need task manager as I can perfectly remember tasks for the following couple of days or a week. I could get away by using the built in calendar in the iPhone and sync with iCal on the Mac. It's just that RTM is so much more elegant tool to accomplish this modest goal.

Being able to see an overview of the pending tasks, add new tasks and mark tasks as completed is all the functionality I'll ever need from the web app. I usually do this from the couch at the end of the day, even though I can easily access the computer, and use the computer just to set tasks for the following week(s).

More sophisticated functionality can be reserved for the iPhone app and for the people that really need it. I understand that they can find 25$/year a reasonable value proposition.

Coming from someone who has tried literally every todo app on the iPod, I really enjoy the flexibility of the RTM smart lists. There is so much power in all the commands available that no other todo app can touch. I was a long time Life Balance user and one of the the things I liked so much about it was the "places" concept. Especially that places could be nested within each other Like place "Home" can include computer, calls, chores, etc. I can create the same functionality with RTM through the smart list searches. Big selling point!

It is evident from these posts that RTM is serving two very different market segments: the "professional" GTD user and the casual home user. For the GTD user, $25/year is very reasonable for the service; but for the casual user, it is a deal-breaker. Emily, I think RTM has an opportunity to sub-segment their offering. The Pro user is satisfied with the service at its current price point, that is obvious. The casual user however, cannot justify the price for the feature set that they use. So how about offering a paired down version of the iPhone app for these casual users? I'm no programmer, so I do not know how much work would be needed to create a feature-light version of the app, but it would seem that the major code could be pulled straight from the feature-rich version. Further, simply having the app on one's phone will contribute much to word-of-mouth marketing, essentially turning even free users into walking advertisements for the service (a friend watched me complete a task the other day, went home and immediately signed up for a Pro account even though I was only using the basic account). It would also help alleviate some users from migrating to competing services as well as introducing casual users to the interface and GTD philosophy who may upgrade later.

For my part, I used the app for the trial period and loved it, but did not use any features above a simple to-do list. I didn't need the rich features and so didn't use them, making $25/year seem far too high for me. But if an unexpected project were to come up, I'd probably start using the more advanced features which would justify paying more. Someone in an earlier post mentioned the "gateway drug" effect, that using a simple app will encourage more involved use for a paid-for app. This is essentially, I think, what you are trying to do with the trial, but unfortunately 15 days is not enough time for a crisis to arise that needs the advanced features. A free, "lite" version of the app that is used frequently would be much more likely to encourage upgrades than a 15-day trial, because once the trial is over the user will stop using the service.

I'm sorry but I still consider $25/year to very reasonable for such an excellent program that with all of its features and multiple ways to access and work with your tasks. Oh, and I do not use the GTD method formally. I use RTM to handle both work and professional tasks. I have no issues with any iPhone user having to spend $2.08 per month for such great functionality and a guaranteed backup of my data at all times. iPhones and their data plans themselves are not exactly targetted at budget users to begin with, and I think the great support and ever-improving functionality we get is well worth $2 per month. And I'm Canadian, so since this is in $US, it's actually costing me about $2.25 per month now :)

The problem is of course that this argument can eternally go in circles because people have different budgets and different expectations.

However, buying a BMW just to drive to the grocery store once a week doesn't change the fact that you're still *paying for* a BMW even though you could do just fine with a Toyota Yaris.

If you're really interested in only using RTM to manage a half-dozen tasks a week, then there are lots of free options out there that you can already use to do that.

RTM is an app designed with a specific purpose and feature-set in mind. If they choose to release a "Lite" version at some point, then so be it, but even then you have to consider that the RTM folks would have to spend *their* development time on producing a lite version for possibly no net benefit (since they'd be giving that lite version away).

I don't believe that RTM should be bending over backwards to cater to the demands for enhanced free solutions, since it's a no-win situation that will only take their time and attention away from developing features for those of us who *are* interested in being paying customers. To quote John Gruber from an article a few years ago: "But trying to appeal to the second group, those who will not buy software under any conditions, is a terrible idea. By definition, you can’t win — they’re not buying anything. The problem is that there are a lot of people who fall into this category, and many of them are quite vocal. They are also, often, quite dishonest. They will say things like “I’d pay $20 for this, but not $40. $40 is ridiculous.” But if you cut the price to $20, they will tell you it ought to be $10. What many of these people do not want to admit, even to themselves, is that they are simply cheapskates. "

This same argument that keeps popping up that people owning iPhones should accept whatever is thrown at them at whatever price because they own an "expensive toy" is wrong.

RTM should also listen to the users, since even those that use it for free provide value, as they bring new customers to the service by the word of mouth. Some of those new users will eventually become paying customers and generate revenue for RTM. Users that leave it don't bring anything but bad publicity.

Beauty of the cloud service is that the same thing can be both Yaris and BMW to different people depending on the subscription they have, be it free, "cheap", "less cheap" or pro.

I see your point, and I know that all happy users offer a chance to spread the word, but...

Less than seven cents a day for a system that tracks your tasks, reminds you of what's up (yes, this could be better), integrates with gCal and your iPhone, and is slowly getting better is, in my book, a deal. One does not need to value their own time, or the worth of their commitments, to decide that seven cents a day is a fair tradeoff for this.

There are all sorts of great free tools on the web. If what one seeks is a free tool, I do not see why one would have to leave RTM with any bitterness just because it is not free.

Obviously, just my opinion. No affiliation with RTM other than a longtime user.

The way I see it, if RTM keeps you from forgetting one very important thing it has justified the cost.

If you charge this app for $9.99 on AppStore I will definitely buy it, but,.. $25/y just for client apps on mobile devices? No, I dont have a warm fuzzy feeling

It's even more expensive than a flickr pro account! Think about it!
It's now rated merely 2.5 out of 5 on AppStore! Think about it!

And the competition is also not standing still. Google today announced the Tasks by Google Labs which is directly integrated in the Gmail interface.

It would be long before somebody, if not Google itself, comes up with a fancy way of accessing it from the iPhone. Then we'll have some serious competition, at least for the hearts and minds of casual users.

Sorry, it's "It won't be long..."

I just signed up for a Pro account--and then realized that it might not be useful for my intended use unless I shell out ANOTHER $25. But hopefully I'm wrong. Please advise.

OK, so I will use this program for several things. But one thing I'll use it for is coordinating family tasks with my wife--shopping ("Remember the Milk"), picking up kids. This requires TWO iPhones that are linked to the service, not just one. Can I do this with my Pro membership, or is my wife going to have to sign up, too (which she won't)? Keep in mind that I don't want to share ALL my lists with her, just the ones related to family logistics.

I don't blame anybody for trying to make a buck off a good service. But don't forget that the name of the product is "Remember the Milk." And that implies sharing among mobile devices. And (unless there's something I'm overlooking, and I hope there is) I don't think remembering the milk is worth $50.

Thanks,
Jim

All you people complaining that $25 is expensive need to get a grip. It's like one round of drinks in a pub. You can always use a free account to trial the service before you pay for it. If you want free lists with cloud sync on your iPhone there's always Zenbe Lists but it has nowhere near the amount of functionality RTM has. You get what you pay for. Damn freetards.

I am using RTM (with iPhone and Pro) since day 1 and I am more than happy with it. I think it is worth the 25$.

However, I also feel that the pricing concept needs consideration. The only extra value of the pro account is that it works with the iPhone. However, RTM does NOT charge for the iPhone app but gives it away for free. Using it requires to pay the 25$ directly to RTM and not through the AppStore, which shouldn't make Apple too happy about it. I think this "stinks" a little. I would find it more honest to charge a reasonable amount for the iPhone App, or otherwise to add substantial extra value for "Pro" users.

Does the iPhone app work on it's own without hooking it up to an account? I prefer knowing that RTM is getting 100% of my $25 rather than Apple take a cut.

Happily paid the $25. As I'm migrating away from an old Plam handheld, I need my todos on my iPhone, and RTM is far and away the best GTD app for this platform. Also, being able to access my lists from any computer via the website is icing on the cake.

How in the heck do you expect the folks at RTM to keep developing this product when so few people are willing to pay for it? I consider this expense the best way of supporting RTM's efforts, and anxiously await each new release.

Keep up the GREAT work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm a convert. Not a recent one, as I was a convert the first time I logged in and registered. I remember when I got the difference between a list and a tag. I remember when I shared my first list. I remembered when I evangelized the product and got my church to implement it on all their desks. I remember when I integrated it with Firefox and Gmail (Gmail needs to thank RTM for bringing me in). I remember when I bought pro so I could go mobile on my MS Mobile phone.

Folks - don't think about this tool as it stands against a world of $1 app store throw-aways. This is a system for helping you be more productive. This will help you be more valuable at work. This will help you far more than the $25 it costs and the benefits will be repeated every year.

Think about it this way. You could buy it for 1 year and think of it as a one time charge. If it isn't worth it, don't renew. But if it is, then you'll find out what the other RTM evangelists know, that this is worth far more than $25 bucks.

You tightwads!!

The RTM crew have spent years developing an incredible task service and you whinge over such a small amount of money...

If it's a problem, use the Safari version that is free. Personally, I'm happy to be supporting them as their work has made my life a lot easier to manage!

I'd love to use Safari, but not with the standard web layout. That's just not practical on the iPhone.

I'd also like to support RTM but not to the tune of 25$/year. It doesn't matter how much effort they've put into it. What matters is how much value it brings to any one of us. For some it's enough to justify the cost, for others it's not.

BTW, I've been trying out Chandler (http://chandlerproject.org) and I like it a lot. Unfortunately, it (still) doesn't have iPhone app.

Completely agree with 'dosomething'

RTM has not come to be such a great service just as a fluke. You can be sure that Bob T Monkey & the rest of his team have been working extremely hard.

The backend infrastructure for supporting the 500,000+ users is not cheap & I think that it is fair to assume that a large majority of those users are "free users".

Of course RTM could subsidize their free edition with ads similarly to how Google does with Gmail, but so far they have chosen not to do so I assume in an attempt to maintain a great user experience.

I think that most users can actually save money overall by using RTM... If you consider that you can plan you tasks more strategically, save gas money by accomplishing tasks in groups, save time (which = money) by remembering to do things when they need to be done, save penalty fees by handling financially-related tasks before the due date... etc.

I think that if you were able to track every aspect of your life that costs you money for 1 year, and then compare that to a year with RTM, you would save even more than $25 during the RTM year.

We're talking $0.07 a day people. You might even be able to find that much on the ground every day if you tried. :)

The most i would be willing to pay for this is a $15 one time fee. That is it. I am deleting what looks like a very nice application right now. Let us know when you adjusted you business model. By the way, the longer you wait the harder it will be for your marketing people to pull us back in. Cheers.

Actually, in re-reading this thread, I realize that it started with the statement that the iPhone-optimized *web* version of RTM should be available in the free version, and I actually *do* agree with that premise.

The RTM crew understandably put a fair bit of effort in developing the web edition, but now that the App Store version is out, the web edition is pretty much a "has-been" feature, and I seriously doubt any "Pro" user is actually going to be using the web edition that much any more.

Further, the "Pro" features have traditionally involved sync-related functions, such as Milksync for the Blackberry. In that sense, the iPhone *App* fits into the same space... It's an offline synced version of your RTM data. To be fair, developing and maintaining a sync solution, as well as an iPhone app, is going to cost the RTM folks more in terms of the development costs and the back-end resources.

However, I'd argue that the accessing the web version of RTM on your iPhone is not fundamentally different from accessing it from the browser on your computer.... You're still accessing the RTM web service, and you don't get any of the benefits of the app such as offline access to your data.... You just get a more usable interface.

So, as much as I support RTM's current business model for the iPhone *Application* I do agree with the original poster that they should be making the iPhone-optimized web version available to all RTM users, and not just "Pro" users.

Don't get me wrong here, I think that it's great that RTM offers a free verison *at all* since there are obviously costs involved with providing this service -- it's an online service and not a standalone application. However, I think it's somewhat inconsistent that the iPhone-optimized web site is a Pro feature when the normal web service is available to free users.

How many PRO users are there??
RTM must have earned a lot with $25 per user! :|

amazing

I'm trying out the iPhone app and web app now, but don't see the point of the web app. Am I missing something? Why would I want to use the web app over the iPhone app?

I've played around with the apps and think they're great. I've also read all the comments in this thread and I've got to agree that this app just isn't worth $25 per year. Maybe the service as a whole would be, but it's already free and the additional value of the app doesn't add much. I think the rtm people should be supported, they deserve it. But I can't support this business model; it doesn't make sense and doesn't add much value. It's a shame this great service won't acheive it's full potential because of an oddball pricing strategy.

$2/month? a cup of starbucks per month?

I don't think it's much to ask for such a great to-do app. I happily paid it as soon as I had some expendable income.

Ok, 2 main complaints. First, they list the app in the iTunes store at FREE. With a little notice to "Learn more about our Pro accounts" on the website. Nowhere do they tell you it will cost you $25 every year. NOWHERE. They say FREE.

And second, at $25, it's the most expensive productivity app in the store even the first year, not to mention if you keep on using it beyond that. It's a pricing strategy that has no place in the app store.

Frankly, I don't care how much time & effort they've put into the app. I'm a potential customer, not some rah-rah bestest buddy who wants to give them warm fuzzies for their effort. If they put up a hobbled free version, I'll get it. If they fix their pricing nonsense to a single reasonable fee, I'll probably get it. As it is, I'll stick to pulling rtm up in Safari if I keep using it at all.

I agree that is should say how much pro accounts are. There's nothing to "learn more" about. There is one price: $25/year. It should say that up front.

I've been using the regular mobile site (http://m.rememberthemilk.com) and I find it fairly usable from the iPhone. Of course it would be better to have access to the iPhone optimized site.

Is there a way to put the regular RTM icon on the home page of the iPhone and have it point to the mobile site?

http://ipod.about.com/od/webbrowsing/a/making_webclips.htm

This is the standard procedure to put the link on the home screen. Unfortunately you end up with a miniaturized login screen as icon, not the RTM icon.

I think a web site needs to craft its own icon and name it in a certain way to override the iPhone’s best guess at it. If that’s true, you’d need RTM to do it, and I imagine they see the iPhone app and web site as their iPhone solution, so they may not be too keen to tweak it. Or maybe I am overlooking something simpler.

It can be done.

You need to download the icon you want to use. It can be done using User Agent Switcher extension in Firefox and visiting http://i.rememberthemilk.com. You need to fake the user agent and pretend to be visiting from an iPhone, otherwise you're redirected to the regular mobile site.

By opening the source code, identify the link to the RTM home screen icon and download it.

Then visit http://www.clipalizer.com and fill the form. The icon needs to be resized to 57x57p before uploading it. It will generate a link you need to then visit from the iPhone. Just follow the instructions.

Or.... just visit using Safari from iPhone:
http://www.clipalizer.com/index.php?a=o276

I have been a long time admirer of RTM, but not a serious user. I just tried loading it on my iPhone for the first time, and I really hope I'm just experiencing a glitch and not the new way RTM works. When I've tried to log in to i.rememberthemilk.com AND even the regular m.rememberthemilk.com, AND the regular www.rememberthemilk.com on my iphone, I cannot log on.

When I've tried to log in through i.rememberthemilk.com, it tells me to get the iPhone app. But when I've tried logging into each of the other sites, it just simply doesn't log in. I have checked my login, and re-checked that it is correct, but it just isn't working for me. Is this an explicit attempt to force users into Pro accounts?

As much as I'd like to use RTM, $25/year is far too much for me to pay - regardless of the financial positions of other members in this thread. I would be personally willing to pay $10 or MAYBE even $20 one time for an iPhone App, but not re-occurring. Perhaps I would pay $5/year for a re-occurring charge but any more is not reasonable for me. I only pay $25/year for my Flickr account, which hosts over 10GB of photos that I can share with my family - quite a lot more server-intense that keeping to-do lists (albeit, nice ones). I think the web-optimized version of the website should be free, but I really can't believe that the regular site would be blocked to iPhone users. I have never heard of another web app do such a thing to force users into a pay account. Can anyone else (without a pro account) please confirm this is not just a problem for me? Thanks.

I never had problems logging in. You must have disabled browser cookies on your iPhone.

@acirovic

I hope it is simply that, but I have tried now on two different iPhones with cookies turned on to 'Always' with no luck. I have tried again with i. prefix, the m. prefix, and with no prefix at all. Each time I enter my information and try to log in, it brings me right back to the login screen without telling me my password was wrong or anything - I just can't get in. I've tried my password on the laptop several times to make sure my credentials are still good. Any more ideas?

@acirovic

Thanks for the tip. It turns out I had to restart my iPhone for the Cookies to take effect. I am able to log in now. Since I installed the iPhone app a few days ago, I am still under the free Pro trial period. Will the web-optimized version still work after the trial period is over? If not, what about the m. version? Thanks.

This post is about making the *webapp* version free and not the *app store* version.

As mentioned by "dudewad1", there are two kinds of users for RTM ... those who are GTD kind and the others are just casual users. It's good for RTM to retain both. If casual users get access to *web version* for free or a small one time fee such as $5, there will be many satisfied users who might migrate to pro account once the need arises.

There is nothing called one size fits all. You have to make the app appealing to everyone and the only way is to come up with an account type that is less than pro and more than basic.

I do also think that RTM is too expensive. 25$ is above most of the to do apps on the App store and it's an annual fee!